There is a great rift between the transsexual and intersexed communities because of the cultural dichotomies of sex, and mostly because of the discrimination and erasure of ‘non-binary’ identities. The perception or belief is that somehow through choice many of us with in our communities refuse to live as “Proper Men” and “Proper Women” with no regards to our unique conditions. This applies to both transsexuals and intersexed persons. Even within and between these two groups there is discrimination of those regards from that culturally nonsensical vitriol. But why should we be enemies, when in all considerations these two very closely related components should be cooperative. But when you start talking about suffering it drives a wedge of entitlement into the issue that is hard to dislodge. Each group has claims to suffering for their unique conditions and ultimately have valid reasons to cry foul. What, however, is not valid is the divisiveness of this diatribe between the two. Most of us spend hours, months and years trying to define ourselves, most often depending on Wikipedia for definition.
You’d only have to look a forum away to find an intersexed person who will beat you about the head, neck, and shoulders for claiming transsexuality as anything resembling intersexuality. This is especially true of forums that cater to the intersexed persons who “did conform” under the treatment of a physician. These groups, like the rest of heteronormative society, are very disparaging to all who “fail to conform their genders under duress, and hormone therapies“. If you are intersexed and transgender you are unwanted, shunned even ridiculed for the same circumstances that some of those very people experienced. The two titles convolutes the issue greatly. It is even present in medical literature as I have mentioned before as well as the same erasure we see of all non-binary identities. With such a rift such mentalities are inevitable.
Image via Wikipedia
The intersexed community itself is divided down the same lines as our culture is… Those who conformed to their assigned genders, and those who don’t. It’s a newly made visible dichotomy in our culture that has for centuries tried to deny and vehemently so. Of even those who are intersex and conform to their assigned role, many experience significant gender dysphoria though quite a few would deny it. Also there is a community wide denial of any gender identity disorder among that community at large, in trying to make itself insular from the transgender community. This denial is of course false, and trying to define one as different from the others. What is ironic about this sentiment, is that it disappears when talking to some of the foremost experts in the fields of medicine surrounding them.
Dr. Milton Diamond for one believes that transsexuality is a form of intersexuality, and there is medical evidence to back up this conclusion, he also has the medical research, and experience to back up why he claims such things. I can hear it now, the scorning voices of the intersexed persons out there who suffered through the genital mutilations of normalization therapies. In this same token, there are many intersexed persons who never experienced this, or whose conditions were more mildly ambiguous but who are no less intersexed, or even more rare that their families didn’t consign them to corrective surgeries. Does suffering at the hands of doctors make you more or less valid as a person, or intersexed? Does it make your identity any less valid? The idea that intersexed people are not like transsexuals on the basis of suffering alone (while no amount of unnecessary suffering is justifiable for any reason) this does not hold water as a justification for division. On a whole we are both at war with the social dynamic, some of us stuck between bayonets and cannon blasts with no middle ground to stand on.
Indeed, being intersexed and transsexual both have issues that vary slightly, this in itself does not prove such a rift between the two. The rift between the two is driven there by both the senses of entitlement to reparation for being different, and because of the cultish and obtrusiveness of heteronormative ideology. Being transgender or intersex has no variation in validity or need despite what some may say. If you transition as an intersexed person it is no different from transitioning as a transgender person. There are varying legal considerations, but the overall cultural account is the same. In fact, if you are intersexed, you are treated similarly, as you would be if you were transsexual, though I’d argue there are differences. In the end the sex of the brain really does matter to our lives as human beings, and it is the denial of this that is the source of all of our suffering. Why should these communities be divided, either inside or out? The real answer is there is no reason for it.
An image that represents how I feel about gender in a pseudo 3-D representation. I see gender and sex as a multidimensional thing, and not as something that is simply a dichotomy. There is no way to define humanity itself into such a dichotomy, therefore binary gender assertions are ultimately false.
There is no reason for intersexed people to be offended by their similarities with transsexual person, and no valid entitlement because of suffering. If you live in that frame of thought, then no amount of suffering will ever validate someone’s need. Any argument that says that transsexuals don’t suffer and the intersexual do is going to be flat-out wrong. I don’t see those pains as being any different, or separate or valid. The validity of self is not based on the premise of suffering, though holding true to one’s identity in spite of suffering is admirable. Furthermore, the definition of intersexed is much to narrow to really be inclusive of all variations of human gender and sex. This is just how things are. Denying the sky is blue doesn’t make it purple. But, now you may be asking since I got through the meat of what I was presenting, why and how is this pertinent to me.
Image via Wikipedia
Well because to a degree I live between these worlds. I have enough symptoms of intersexed characteristics to assert that I am likely one, but I am transgender so doctors refuse to take me seriously when I tell them about my condition. I menstruate minus bleeding because I can’t. I cycle like a woman. Around the full moon I get tenderness in my breasts, and experience a pain near my hip bones that feels like being kicked in the genitals. I also experience depression around the time most women are ovulating. Since 2003 my body displayed the onset of gynecomastia, but not from obesity. I weighed 155 lbs at 5’8″ when it started, and 165 now. My body began “flipping” in 2008 when my body odor changed and my monthly hormonal cycles worsen, and my breast soreness started to get bad. My body started to change shape, from androgynous to more feminine. My emotional responses changed, as did my libido.
Even with all the signs, even blood tests with decreased testosterone and increased estrogen I couldn’t convince a doctor that something “weird” was going on. At the time I was not considered transgender, but I felt very much that I was a woman though I kept much of that to myself. I had fertility issues, but I wasn’t married so I had no reason to complain about it. Eventually my endocrine disruption landed me in a psychotherapists office at which point I was diagnosed with GID. I never got tested for it, because no one took me serious. By that point hiding it required very strategic clothing choices, and very tight waist jeans to hide my feminine hips. Since then my cycles have gotten much more intense as well as the menstrual like pains, and mood swings. With no more testosterone my body makes a decent amount of its own estrogen, more than technically should. But it’s hard to avoid getting beat up by trans and intersexed people alike for admitting this, or admitting my wish to give myself for intersexed testing.
This is something of a problem, that people believe that if you are transsexual, that getting tested is somehow validating the pathology of it. You also get beat up by the intersexed for the perception that you are trying to claim the “supposed freedom of intersexed status” as an excuse. In fact, there are intersexed people out there who believe like other in our culture that being transgender is all in your head. It is all, of course, a result of the deriding and demoralizing power of sexism, that somehow you are less of a person if you aren’t of the status quo. No sane intersexed person should support this mentality, furthermore, no transsexual person should scoff at another transsexual person who has real reason to believe there body is different beyond their gender identity. As I feel I can attest, being intersexed has its own questions which munch on thoughts at the back of your mind. Why am I like this, why am I different? Not all transsexual persons out there are “looking of an easy out” by trying to declare intersexed conditions.
Image via Wikipedia
I, for one, couldn’t care less about what intersexed conditions mean about me as a person, and it makes no difference in the course I’ll take in my life. I don’t need, nor want a justification, I just want to know why I feel how I do and the RIGHT to pursue those ends. But that is the problem with our culture. They tend to deny that which lies outside of the confines of their silly little binaries, whether it be my boobs, my menstrual-like cycles, or my gender identity. Even with all my symptoms, and even validated with in-depth medical testing, you aren’t guaranteed an intersexed diagnosis, much less so insurance coverage for such or fertility treatments to allow you the same privilege as cisgendered infertile people. Indeed, it would almost seem as though our culture has a want to be very “eugenic” about allowing the “others” to reproduce. It is not the pathological or biological method by which people are transsexual or intersexed, nor testing that searches for them that needs scrutiny, but the cultural perception that such people are unfavorable and should be denied the rights entitled to other human beings (including right to life).
Transsexuals who get tested aren’t transgressing transness by seeking such testing, or for the pathologization of all who “fail to conform to normalization” to include intersexed. It is our culture and our mentalities about sex and gender that are truly blameworthy for this great rift that lies between the two, not those who seek to understand the cause of our conditions. In a culture that wasn’t so entangled in its denial getting tested would be socially inconsequential and medically helpful. Ignorance is no excuse for maintaining practices which discriminate against others. No one has the right to declare who lives and dies on the basis of their preference or their gender or lack of definable gender. It is no different from the murder of female babies in India and China because female children are less valuable. Transsexuals aren’t deplorable for simply by declaring their similarities with those who are intersexed. As with anything, transsexuality is little more than another variation of standard models of sex, and comes with it its own suffering as great and can be greater than the intolerance and discrimination shown to intersexed people. It is time for these communities to stop letting those binaryists, and conformists tell us how we should live our lives, or who we should live it as. The transsexual and intersexed people of the world have a lot to gain by uniting more and a lot to lose by not doing so. Remember, some transgender people are symptomatic, and others are not… Just as some intersexed people are, and in my opinion both of which have biological origins. It’s time for us to shatter the entitlement via suffering, otherwise we all lose.
Related articles
- Dangers of intersex inclusion with DSM 5 (kallmannssyndrome.wordpress.com)
- Trans-border crossings (macleans.ca)
- Beyond Male and Female: Gender Trouble, Biology Trouble. (queeringthechurch.com)
- How a Woman Became a Dominican Priest, and Teacher of Moral Theology. (queeringthechurch.com)
- Making Peace with the Grue-some Monsters (mhairi.wordpress.com)
- A Transsexual Vs. the Government (time.com)
- More Marginalized Than Women: Who are Hijras? (sairasays.wordpress.com)
Update: I concede that perhaps I don’t know enough on this issue to represent it on all sides. But that is part of what blogging is about or at least to me. It’s more than a wall you bounce your words off, it’s more interactive. There is a lot more to this issue that what I can possibly represent from what I know about it. It is something I have spent a good deal of time researching (though sometimes there is little to be had on certain topics), but it is pretty clear that perhaps we are not at a point where we can make a “Call to Arms” to unite these groups. That being said, I should boil down the inspiration of this blog to what it means. I am against the dichotomization of groups for no other reasons than the cultural state of mind. Where this plays in to me is the denial and erasure of intersexed people who transition, and the denial and erasure of the need of some transgendered people to receive treatment and testing for intersexed conditions. These conditions aren’t exclusive, being one doesn’t prohibit the other.
Also, I am against the way the medical establishment treats these groups. Their positions tend to be medical normalization focused without regards to the patient, and very surgery heavy in goals. This is because it is perceived to be a “bad thing” or “culturally unacceptable” to exist between the gender binary sex constructs so often endorsed, especially here in westernized cultures. Many people can’t afford to get surgeries, and many others are forced into unnecessary ones. This needs to change, and I think it is a valid point of focus for both the intersexed and transgendered communities. Like many others I also would disagree with the position and inclusion in the DSM-IV of intersexed conditions, I also disagree with the inclusion of transsexuals. I do admit that treatment for people with GID is necessary, and intersexed people can suffer gender dysphoria as well, I don’t believe it should be targeted at transgendered people as a mental disorder. It only serves to stigmatize.
I feel it should be labeled and codified as a medical condition (note: still independent of intersexed conditions) and live firmly in the realm of medicine. Not everyone who is transgendered has gender dysphoria, or has trouble dealing with it. Transgenderism/Transsexuality is not a mental illness as is prescribed by some, nor is the need of some intersexed people to transition a “failure to conform to treatment”. I also resent the idea that intersexed or transgendered people “need” to be normalized, unless of course they ask for it themselves. I am resistant to the idea that transgender people aren’t “real men” and “real women”, as do I resist other categorizations being forced on people. I also feel that every opportunity for medical transition needs to be granted equally to all intersexed people as well. It is my sincerest wish to see a world where gender isn’t forced upon us by a majority, that all people regardless of status and medical condition have a choice over their body based on what they need. This I feel is something all of us can strive toward as a whole, not just intersexed and transgender people.
Lastly, I understand that my hormonal status before transition, physical pains, hormonal cycles and body proportions don’t in and of themselves necessarily guarantee that an intersexed condition is the cause. There are certainly other and rare conditions that can contribute to what I experienced (from body changes to hormonal interventions, et cetera). The main reason I even care is because of the pain, and issues it produces. Honestly, the possibility frightens me because I don’t want to lose access to treatment because of it. I want to know, and I don’t. Finding the cause seems important enough, but it makes it no less scary. I really don’t have anything else to say on this topic, accept that I concede that I am not an expert, and I can only speak from my unique position. I do not, and can not speak for others on this issue, as I am neither a doctor, nor a scientist. It is the negotiator in me that hates to see division and always searches for common ground. I can assert certain things I know, but I don’t know everything.
Reneta Xian 
What is Intersex?:
http://oiiaustralia.com/information/intersex/
Thanks for that link… That is actually the first inclusive description I have seen on the net, and one of the first that actually mentions the popularly promoted positions about genders of various conditions.
The only problem with OII, is that they seem to use the trans and LGBT model to push for intersex people. Which as a result get’s them no where and get’s them very little.
I don’t know much about OII, but I can see your concern. I have personally never been a fan of some of those approaches to equal rights either. But on the web, it is one of the first I’ve seen outside of forums that dispel the popularized, and medically fraudulent (in my opinion) ideas that all XXY are male, all AIS are female, et cetera.
Well if you look at groups like OII, they primarily use the LGBT and trans model to push for intersex right. Though the way they are going at it, they won’t make it or will get bogged down. Now if you want to see a real org push for legal rights, look at AIC, which is Advocates for informed choice. They are an intersex only legal rights group and do not have any dealings with trans people. Here is their link http://aiclegal.org/
The problem lies in the fact that intersex people like myself hate it when you have transgender/transsexual people who like to claim and pretend to be intersex, without fully knowing or understanding of what it fully means to be born intersex or born with an Intersex condition. We intersex get pissed when trans like to misrepresent themselves as intersex people, when they don’t understand that it’s no party and no fun being born intersex. The only explanation as to why you are seeing a number of trans trying to claim and pretend to be intersex. It could be that they seem to see intersex as being more legitimate or more real to Society, medicine and the science community. It could be that they believe that by claiming intersex, they believe it legitimizes their trans status or they believe that it get’s them a leg up in society or get’s them more sympathy.
What a lot of trans don’t realize, it’s no fun being born intersex and it ain’t no party being born intersex either.
Believe me I am aware that there is a stark difference, both between different conditions and between transgendered people as well. I am also totally against people co-opting it for top cover. People who don’t have the condition shouldn’t say they have it, and I’d never advocate for that. This is true, it is viewed as being more valid in many degrees, something I firmly disagree with. Whether you are transgender or intersexed you are entitled to equal treatment for transition, and neither position is more valid than the other. However, that is not how our culture treats it.
However, there is also a problem with how you are treated in the medical establishment when you aren’t just transgender or intersexed alone, and being one or the other first makes taking care of the other issues difficult at best. In my experience, I have had doctors outright ignore signs of what I knew was going on in my body, simply because of ignorance, and perceived unsound judgement. Believe me I understand it’s not joke or disposable label to be intersexed. I’d rather be neither, but that isn’t up to me.
Many transgender persons have very valid reason to ask for testing, and many intersexed people have reason to request medical transition, but there is a lot of difficulties in crossing that line. These two groups aren’t exactly the same, but have valid reason to work together. But this isn’t the spirit I see out there in our culture, most of which I see is erasure and division. I even see division between those who transitioned and those who don’t within the intersexed community itself.
What I speak about is the division between the intersexed and transgender communities. I know there are some out there bridging the gaps. What I have a problem with is the “pathologizing” argument by transgender people against other trans people getting tested for such conditions, and the stigmatization of intersexed people who transition by labeling them as “uncooperative” even denying them treatment. The gap between culture and these groups is reflected in it’s ranks, and it shouldn’t be.
Being either transsexual or intersexed are neither a walk through the park, and certainly not something I’d ever see anyone choosing to be. However, none of us usually have a choice on the matter. I just don’t think science or medicine should be abridged for the sake of avoiding cultural misunderstandings. Something being in the DSM-IV verses other medical literature also provides fuel to the great disconnect.
The only problem is, that it’s becoming an all too common to see. Where Trans are using the intersex excuse as top cover for why they are trans. You see some who claim to have magical intersex conditions or conditions that don’t even meet what is specific to every intersex condition. Some even use it as an excuse to throw at people for why they are trans or even use it to get a leg up in society or claim a non-existent disability or get pass the gate keepers.
Their are some who seem to think that it’s all fun to be labeled as intersex, but don’t seem to realize that it ain’t no fun and no party being born intersex. Some think that being intersex will get them the sympathy within society or people, but don’t seem to see the long term health problems that comes with being born intersex. They seem to want to garner the same sympathy that intersex people have and think by labeling themselves as intersex as an excuse, people would not see trans underneath it.
It’s become a common thing online, to see trans pretend and claim to be intersex without ever being tested or diagnosed by a competent medical doctor. Some think, that by claiming intersex, that they think that people will be more sympathetic to them. They don’t see what it means to be born intersex and be born with an intersex condition and the long term health affects that go along with being intersex and being born intersex.
One of the other things I have seen, is that some trans have claimed to have some so called intersex brain or claiming that transsexuality is some form of intersex. Which at the moment is being passed around online as if they are intersex and don’t seem to see the fact that it’s only a theory and not a proven fact. Some think that a theory is a fact, and try to pass it off as if it’s a fact. Though as of right now, No intersex org, that I know of accepts the trans theory of being intersex on the grounds it’s not intersex in the DNA and physical sense.
The divisions you speak of is because intersex don’t like it when trans come into the intersex community, pretending to know more about intersex and pretending to think they have this condition. Without being tested and diagnosed by a medical doctor. We intersex do get pissed at any trans who pretend to be intersex.
Their is one essay, that you have to read to understand why intersex don’t like trans in their community and why intersex get pissed at trans people. It’s called Dangerous Intersections: Intersex and Transgender Differences by Raven Kaldera http://www.ravenkaldera.org/intersection/DangerousIntersections.html
I think I had read something like that if not that exact article before. It is a helpful article and I thank you for referring me back to it. I understand your sentiments on this issue a little better on this issue now, and I see the point of the author you referred me too. I think she may be right, thinking about it from those perspectives. I guess like anyone, I get upset with the way the medical community treats transgender and intersexed people on both sides of that debate. I didn’t realize there were that many people out there claiming it without a formal diagnosis, and I can say you do have a right to protest that. It is a problem, for sure; one in a little clearer focus for me now.
Most of the articles I have found lately have been the “Anti-Medical” type. That essentially people are against testing to find out the pathway from biology to conditions, as if it invalidates the natures of those who are different. I think if we are ever to find understanding more testing is needed, both to find better treatment paths, and finding the cause of this. If science has taught me anything, everything has a cause. But perhaps with what goes on around the world at large, maybe Raven Kaldera is right that there is still too much at this point for these groups to find a better common ground. As for myself, I just want to know why it hurts, and have explanations and doctors that take your symptoms seriously.
Thank you for your input, I really do appreciate it greatly. I guess I didn’t realize how bad it is, or maybe needed a little refocus. I still think though that people shouldn’t avoid testing and medical evaluation (mostly because of potential complications), or demonize it on the premise that it ‘justifies pathology’. I tend to think methodologically about it. I also feel the medical community needs to be less dismissive and less “one size fits all” about treatment on both sides of the fence. Transgender and Intersexed are different, however one does not preclude the other, and that is the mindset that I am against, something I fear prevails too often in medicine.
I am willing to concede that I am no expert on what the communities need. But I do know that appropriating it without reason and sound medicine backing it is beyond inappropriate. I don’t suggest or recommend anyone do that, and I certainly don’t endorse it. What I do endorse, however, is seeing past the stigmas, fighting against erasure and doing what is medically appropriate and patient centric (not provider centric/medically normalizing), and doing so without barring access to testing and treatment on culturally grounded biases. This includes the treatment of both intersexed and transgendered persons, because the cultural bias effects the fair treatment of both. This is an issue I believe the two can be aligned on, which is what inspired this blog in the first place.
The thing is, that it is becoming a common thing online for trans to claim intersex as an excuse or cover for their trans status. You see alot of trans who are uneducated about what it really means to be intersex and what it means to be born with an intersex condition. You see them thinking and trying to say to people that intersex is under their so called umbrella or that they like to promote and pass themselves of as intersex people without any diagnosis from a medical doctor. It’s becoming a common thing for them and it’s something that you see all the time.
What pisses off vast majority of intersex people is when you have trans,pretending and trying to claim they are intersex. Vast majority of born intersex people see trans who pretend to be intersex as wannabes. They wannabe like born intersex people because they think it’s easy for people to see intersex than it is for trans people. It even pisses off intersex people when you have trans people trying to claim they have this condition and that condition without the testing and diagnosis.
The worst of it all is that some trans think they know what it means or feels like to be intersex when in reality, they were never born intersex from birth. They like to assume and think trans people are the same as intersex people. They somehow think that being trans as it in with real intersex people.
When in reality, intersex people are trying to distance themselves from the trans community. What trans don’t understand and don’t seem to get is that Intersex needs are far different from trans community. Intersex people have needs and issues that are vastly different from trans. Intersex needs are not the same as trans needs and some trans like to think otherwise. Also, at the same time intersex people like to distance from the trans because of what trans have done to themselves and their community. Intersex people in general need a community of their own to heal from the medical, scientific and social abuse. They don’t need any more problems coming from the trans community.
Then again, how do I know that *you’re* intersex and not a transgender person trying to ‘cover up’? The only reason why you say this is because you *assume* they are lying when in reality they are most likely not.
They are real people. They exist. Get over it!
Just because they didn’t sit down with you and describe all their troubles with their intersex condition doesn’t mean they were lying.
For example most xxy males psychologically identify themselves fully as a male.
Some don’t, and transition to female. That’s just how it is.
Some intersex people assigned as one sex transition to another.
I rarely disclose my medical information about my intersex condition and simply call myself “transgender” to make it EASIER for people to understand. My condition doesn’t validate the reasoning for me transitioning to female. I even feel that is another issue all together.
It doesn’t matter if I’m called intersex or transgender, at the end of the day I’m treated as a woman.
This is why I do feel more connected with the transgender community and like to call myself transgender, because the intersex community *DESPERATELY* tries to avoid even being related to transgender topics all together. (and my very existence is caught in the middle).
Then when I do disclose that information, I *know firsthand* that intersex people think i’m “lying” or “covering up”, because I feel *so* connected with the transgender community that to some intersex people it might be hard to believe that I was born intersex.
So who’s the one trying to have a leg-up in society now? Because it sure seems like that’s exactly what the intersex community does, more-so than transgender people. -by trying so hard to distance themselves.
And no matter how hard you try to distance yourself from it, these two issues will NEVER be totally separate from each other, because the fact is that they *aren’t*, and that’s OKAY.
it’s simply common sense that the brain isn’t a sexless organ.
It controls when the penis/clitoris gets erect for god sake, lol.
Brain scans have shown differences between transgender and cisgender brains.
So if you’re going to try so hard to make it seem as if the two are “totally different issues”, it’s never going to happen. The two will always be compared to one another.
Like chromosomes, gonads, genitalia, hormones, etc…. the brain is just “another organ” that shows some type of gender variance. To get all bent out of shape and go out your way to distance yourself so much from that, says something about your own insecurities. Maybe you are the one trying to get a leg up in society.
Then again, I don’t even know you. So if I say that you’re the one “lying” or trying to get a “leg up”, that’s only based on my own suspicion. That doesn’t make it fact.
Simply assuming that any intersex person who reassigns their sex is “really a transsexual” is not based on fact, but based on your own assumptions which are most likely false.
At the end of the day you should respect people for who they are, not make defamatory remarks about them when you really have *no clue* who they are in real life.
I see you have not been in the intersex community long enough to understand why intersex people do not want anything to do with the Transgender community. I also see your ignorance is showing as well and in fact I can see that you lack some real education in Biology, Genetics and frankly science.
The problem with the transgender community is that they like to pretend to be intersex because they think that being intersex is easier than being trans. They like to brow beat people with pseudoscience and science has been disproven time and time again such as the so-called ‘neurological intersex’ and the so-called ‘brain intersex’ that you are claiming. The reason being is that their so-called evidence that they like to peddle to people has never been proven, which is why it has always been disproven time and time again. They even also like to claim that intersex is part of them, when in reality Intersex people have nothing in common with transgender people. Their is no commonality between intersex people and trans people and trans people have no facts or proof of their theories.
The problem with the transgender community is that they can’t come up with a logical argument or logical theory. It’s all over the place and that’s why intersex people like me want to distance the intersex community from the Transgender community. The other is because of the potential harm trans can do to Intersex children and infants. Intersex people have been abused enough by the medical community and intersex people need a space of their own to heal from the medical abuse. It doesn’t help when you have transgender people invading intersex only spaces and pretending to be intersex and trying to claim to be intersex.
It also doesn’t help when you have transgender people such as Zoe Alan Brain going around on pretending to be intersex and transgender. Even posting online claiming to be everything from a biological born woman to having every intersex condition under the sun. Which has been disproven time and time again. When in reality Zoe Alan Brain is a transsexual (M2T) with a UK male Birth certificate who never divorced his ex-wife in the UK. On top of that has had children prior to SRS which would make Zoe Alan Brain or any transsexual disqualified from being intersex. That’s because vast majority of Intersex people are sterile from birth and can’t father or bear children Naturally.
This is why as an intersex person, the intersex community dose not want anything to do with transgender people. Intersex people want nothing to do with Transgender people and want our own spaces. We don’t need transgender people co-opting, misappropriating and pretending to intersex. For me, personally, I have to agree with RadFems, Lesbian and Biological women’s groups that we don’t need transgender people mucking around in Intersex, Radfems, Lesbian and Biological women’s groups.
As for the ‘Leg up” thing, that is because I have seen trans try and claim to be intersex in order to get pass the psychiatric gate keepers to get what they want without being tested or diagnosed by a competent medical doctor. Without the testing and diagnosis, they can’t can’t intersex and can’t be intersex, though they like to try and like to pretend to be intersex. Without creditable biological proof or diagnosis, their credibility is slim to none. They also think it’s easier being intersex than being trans. They like to think by pretending to be intersex, they think they get pass the gate keepers and get ahead of the line. Also being born intersex is no fun and no party, for which trans like to think it’s fun and a party.
What you need to do read why claiming intersex is bad for transgender people such as
Dangerous Intersections: Intersex and Transgender Differences by Raven kaldera
http://www.ravenkaldera.org/intersection/DangerousIntersections.html
Adding the “I”: Does Intersex Belong in the LGBT Movement? by Emi Koyama, Intersex Initiative
http://www.intersexinitiative.org/articles/lgbti.html
Blog Update: 4 Paragraphs added to the bottom of the blog, with position clarification.
Thanks. You taught me something I never considered.
You are totally welcome… You are welcome to discuss such things anytime with me.
I believe that some people are predisposed to becoming transsexual or transgender. This comes from multi variate linkage analysis published a few years ago along with many other studies. What this means is that it is a condition of variable expression and incomplete penetrance.
I am a tg woman. Or woman as I prefer to be known. I have another tg family member. The thing about intersex conditions in society is that they are hidden and covered up historically, so finding records and an honest answer can become impossible.
Personally, now I don’t loose much sleep over it. I have come to realise that in life we have to deal with many things and finding the causative reason can be impossible. Ie. I have had a brain tumour, a serious head injury and abused solvents as a child. I also have a history of mental illness in my family. I have some mental health issues. What caused them? In my mind, now, it does not matter, what is important is how I live my day to day life and manage me symptoms. There have been times though where I have obsessed about these things and really badly wanted to know. Likewise with my tg status. My endocrinologist ran every test that was available to him to detect known and identified intersex conditions. He explained to me after I spent quite some time obsessing and looking for birth and childhood medical records, all of which were lost, well he basically said whatever it is doesn’t matter. What mattered to him was how I feel and who I am. I have a medical team who looks after this aspect of my life, 2 psychiatrists, Endo, social worker etc help me live my life on my terms. And a family court judge lets me alter my birth records to female.
So, I can relate to both perspectives. I think it is important to spend your time thinking about how you live your life and less time trying to judge belittle or demean others. This is something I have learnt about myself on this journey. I resent anyone who wants to control me or decide how to present myself to the world. I think people should spend more time taking care of their own lives than trying to pin down, define or control others.
I originally came out as Transsexual a year ago (Jan 2014), but I knew something wasn’t right when I started on Estrogen. I didn’t have any of the side effects that mtf’s have. In fact the only reason I knew it was working, was my breasts started getting bigger. Yup, I had small breasts since I was 10.
I recently found out, I have PAIS. When I did, everything in my life made since. But the biggest mindfuck? To find out I have a female body, including female secondary sexual characteristics.
I keep finding it harder to relate to transsexuals. I never had a male puberty. In fact my penis and testes never grew after about 7-9. The hairiest part of my body is my arm pits, and public hair. I have no hair on my back at all.
I’ll be honest, there needs to be a separation of Trans* and Intersex. Its not about being exclusive. We have different medical issues to deal with. Take myself, for example. If I choose to stay male, I would still need to take hormones for the rest of my life in order to maintain a healthy body. Trans* folks don’t.
Being Intersex sucks, and I don’t know anyone who would want to be. When I found out I was Intersex, I got depressed. I didn’t get all excited about it. But now that I’ve accepted what I am, I’m proud about it. But I tell everyone I’m not a Transsexual anymore.
Nicky, to be fair, you didn’t actually refute anything, especially not the deluge of trans neuro research performed by objective medical researchers that you hand-waved as nothing. You just talk in circles and repeat yourself, like a sort of rhetoric or mantra. Honestly, what would abnormal sexual dimorphism in the brain so drastic it causes mental side-effects (and needs to be treated with hormone therapy and surgery) be if not an intersex condition? These are the opinions of expert endocrinologists and neurologists we’re talking about here. Not quack psychologist whims or religious cults or political pundits or desperate trans conspiracy nuts or something, which it seems you’re trying to dismiss it as. Medicine is merely applied biology. You’re the one making this political, and conspiracy theory laden.
Speaking of political, by the by, you not only dehumanized and misgendered a trans woman merely because you disagree with her opinions, but you openly agreed with the harsh, cruel and exclusionary message of trans-exclusive radical feminists… a collection of individuals responsible for almost half a century of anti-trans oppression. Even if you’re intersex… especially if you’re intersex… you should know how derogatory and identity-invalidating statements like those affect marginalized and stigmatized people who deal with sex and gender related medical conditions.
You may or may not be intersex. I don’t know. I don’t know you, nor care to. Bigotry, no matter the source, is an unappealing personality trait that will never ingratiate someone to me personally. But you’re definitely no medical expert. Even if you are intersex, you’re just a random near-anonymous person with a medical condition preaching as if you’re omnipotent about things your statements prove you do not understand above a reactionary emotional level.
So, I feel I finally have enough knowledge and experience to put to rest how I feel about this issue. First off, Nicky is following very closely the Radical Feminist mantra on this issue. It’s complete bullshit. The issue with intersexed and transgender people is the fact that we as a society still treat gender identity as mental and non-biological rather than as a biological issue like intersexed conditions. Methodologically speaking, issues that cause trans people to develop contrary gender identities is strictly a biological one at it’s base. How a transgender person’s gender identity forms and changes through life is a nurturing one. So we can see how some aspects of gender are biologically affected, and how our relationship with them is affected by nurturing. The key to remember, it’s never one or the other.
The idea that transgender people are essentially different than intersexed people, namely those who transition later in life is mostly a constructed difference, not an actual one. The fact is, we both live in a society that has been forcing us into gender paradigms that don’t match the reality of how human sex and gender are differentiated, belying their complexity. As such the separation represents in part, a tautology not a legitimate scientific issue. Tautologies fail when it comes to scientific inquiry for precisely the same reasons all absolutist political ideals do… Reality is much more complicated than our dichotomies. As such the separation of trans people and intersexed people into distinct categories and non-overlapping ones is a false dichotomy.
However, distinctly speaking… A trans person is not an intersexed person, or vice versa. They meaningfully should have separate categorization by the natures and understanding of neurological verse physiological. And, they rightly should both carry the same weight as each other, not one being derided as “Imagined” while the other is seen as “Medically Valid”. They are both medically valid and needs within as medically necessary, whereas one results from physiological means, and the other neurological. The problem with trans people wanting to claim to be intersexed isn’t actually a real, legitimate issue, and stems from some radical feminist transphobia and identity policing, rather than a valid criticism.
Trans people aren’t pretending to be intersexed en masse in order to avoid persecution, because the fact is that intersexed people and transgender people are both very much still persecuted for being who they are. That entire idea is bullshit, and there is no evidence this is an actual thing. It’s easy from a relative position to see where given the validation society gives to one over the other why someone might feel that way, the advantages for “Pretending to be one over the other” just don’t exist. That said, no one should be co-opting the lives and identities of other people for the sake of social acceptance, and for those who do that it’s a valid criticism and they shouldn’t be doing that. But no one here has done that, and arguing over what intersex means semantically doesn’t count.
The one very vocal naysayer here isn’t interested in debate, rather in forcing a viewpoint upon others with rather dubious motivations, which raises the credibility of their perspective. But again, trans people aren’t intersexed or vise versa, and they should not be confused with each other. However, they are both medically valid to an equal degree, and that’s how they should be treated. I feel we’re more likely to help each other as long as we understand that, and pushing that ideal is more likely to result in trans people accepting that they are still medically valid with regards to their condition, even if it’s not the same. The division is a scientific one, but the social issues with it are one and the same and are deeply intertwined.
Because our society pushes the gender binary, we are all suspect and people feel a right to feel angry or harm us in one way or other because of what we are and what we represent in light of that cultural paradigm, regardless of what reasons we transition from one gender to another, or regardless of the medical nature of our conditions. That needs to be recognized in this situation, above all else. No one deserves to be forced to live in a way that feels inauthentic to who they are, regardless of condition or it’s social perceived validity. Nicky supports Cathy Brennan a well known transphobe who goes around trying to pass laws that harm trans people for the same invalid reasons that the religious right do, and that’s more than enough reason to draw scrutiny to what they’re saying. SO I rest my case. :3
I’m a lesbian, not intersexed or trans. I have become aware of a serious problem with the very vocal Transactivists who are running right over everyone who is not trans and/or does not unquestioningly accept their demands for inclusion. I am by no means anti trans, I am however anti decimating everyone else to achieve personal affirmation. I hope that as the frustrations grow with the current realities, those of those us being silenced can achieve together a message to the Transactivists that they really need to examine their goals, priorities and unlimited inclusion under the trans umbrella. They must recognize the existence and validity of women born women, biologically intersexed people, lesbians, gay men, bisexuals as well as heteronormative people. I don’t understand why we all, as marginalized people, are being brought to this point by a few loud, obnoxious who are damaging all of us(probably hurting trans people the most!) by extreme, irrational, often mean spirited rhetoric that silences necessary conversation and different points of view.
Sorry I didn’t see and approve your comment sooner, and reply. I recently moved, and it’s been a hectic year.
I have to disagree with respecting or recognizing the validity of “Women Born Women”, and I believe you probably should as well. I’m deeply against the ways in which social constructs of biologic sex end up being used as cudgels against trans people, (and even intersexed people). So I can not condone, recognize or accept the notion of “Women Born Women”. It is a logical fallacy. Possibly a false equivocation, false dichotomy, and/or maybe a “No True Scotsman” fallacy. But, I haven’t slept yet… So yeah. I will respect and recognize that some people are born with traits who may one day, or already have become pregnant. I likewise understand that without bodily autonomy (especially reproductive autonomy) for said people, it causes a great deal of harm. I believe in bodily and reproductive autonomy, as the “Moral Imperative”.
But woman is a construct, and so is sex. You can’t be born a woman, any more than you can be born an artist, a janitor, or a superhero. You can have a set of traits that predisposes you to becoming a whatever. But you can’t be born a woman, or even be “born female”. You can only possess traits generally medically and/or legally designated as or assigned female. Or conversely, be medically altered to better fit that re/assignment if some/many or all of those traits are ambiguous, missing, or otherwise in need of clinical/legal alteration. Its also been mentioned by myself and others before, that surgeries done before the age of consent have been deemed by many to be unethical for good reason, sometimes banned outright. The traits that are used to “assign” sex, come in many different variations, so it calls the whole category into question.
“Women Born Women” attempts to assert a sense or kind of universal womanhood as a means to be divisive, with the intent to declare that trans women are invalid. But it, in so doing, commits the same fallacies it claims of the same theories/positions it attempts to deconstruct or discredit. I mentioned all of the things above, because the fact is… no such consensus exists. “Women” come in all shapes, sizes and types, with widely varied experiences of ‘Being a Woman’. More than that, there is no ‘universal way’ in which a boy or girl is raised. Sure, there can be tropes and variations, but even those aren’t consistent across race and culture. That doesn’t bode well for this “Theory”, or proposition being made when you say ‘Women Born Women’, when in fact no such thing exists.
There is no social or physiological trait that can be singled out without also unnecessarily marginalizing someone else (either cis or trans). “Women Born Women” is harmful to all women, whether assigned, reassigned, or only loosely associated with the categories we tend to want to call woman and female. Further, it has no scientific basis. Gender and Sex aren’t neat little dichotomies/categories, and they never will be. To assert, and therein govern peoples lives as though they are, is as harmful as anything can be… To cis women, but especially to queer and trans women (non-white people even more so). It isn’t founded from sound rationale, but rather the fears given to people by fear mongers, and/or from people who have not overcome their fears of difference from them because systemic abuses of trans people. It’s a story that has repeated time, and time again.
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The underlying problem with this approach is that it is still ultimately based on (at least partially) a biologically existentialist point of view. As such it is UNEQUIVOCALLY wrong.
This principle still stands up as an excuse to marginalize people because of unfounded fear-mongering and divisive logic, and as such I can never condone it. Vehemently so, almost enough that it can make me physically ill (I have generalized anxiety disorder). And if you’re basing your entire opinion/critique of transactivism off of the rantings and ravings of trolls, extremists, and ignorant internet activists, you’re making the same mistake bigoted folks do of the groups they’re against. Now, if you have a valid critique for a specific position, and evidence to present, then I’m totally game. Your comment came off to me in the wrong way though, especially considering the concepts yo mentioned in it, which I have a serious problem with. I feel you might stand to gain better insight by actually trying to understand their criticism, rather than asserting they’re being pushy.
Also, I feel like your conflating a bit too, with what you see online with the people who seem to support trans-inclusion. Which means you probably having fully read up on the issues at hand, or have gotten some bad information somewhere. As well, degree of this nature of the internet can’t be helped, as the task of preventing it from happening at all or even to a high degree is unfeasible. Sadly, the reduction of accountability the internet offers is known to psychologically elevate tendencies to bad behavior. I wish people were above it, but they aren’t. Worse than that, some people can let the more extreme and vocal proponents polarize them against sound reasoning and arguments. I’d be cautious of generalizations though, because it can veer quickly into stereotyping very easily. That said, it was my understanding that you did so with good intent. It came of rather badly, to me at least.
Because to me, felt like you commented because you had an axe to grind, and I don’t feel I did anything to warrant that. Mind you, I can be wrong. Trans people are rightfully angry at the continued need of some to claim there is some kind of “innate womanhood” that trans women can not experience. Not just because it marginalizes us, but because it’s inaccurate and harmful to women who aren’t even transgender. Moreover, protection and inclusion for trans women is good for women as well. The recent bathroom debacles should be sufficient evidence of this. This applies beyond just bathrooms. I think you need to seriously question why you feel the need to say that, and why you believe it’s true. I feel like you’ve heard this repeated so much in your personal circles that you accept it as true, and it’s not. Even I’ve been guilty of that exact thing, only finding out years later I believed something that was false, only because it was repeated to me over and over. But you don’t have to take my word on that, The Illusion of Truth.
And it’s understandable to be upset, with everything going on right now in the world of politics. It’s a very polarizing and chaotic time (in the US anyways), and the twitter warriors and people not critical enough of the things they’re saying makes it that much harder. I recommend reading up on psychology, trans issues, and such on sites that don’t usually cater to that “Women Born Women” mentality. Everyday Feminism might be a good place to reference in cases like this. They have well argued points, structured arguments and evidence, and they do pretty well at avoiding drawing lines in the sand on very polarized issues to a reasonable degree. To conclude my thoughts, bodily and reproductive autonomy are feminist issues, that affect all women (trans and cis) and trans-inclusive policy is necessary. To say, for any reason that trans women aren’t women, is to reduce them to their medical condition.
Here is 4 other articles to get you started, all by different people.
It’s Time For People to Stop Using the Social Construct of “Biological Sex” to Defend Their Transmisogyny
Trans Bathroom Debate
Trans Inclusive Feminism
13 Myths about Trans Women
I’ll be hones though, I generally don’t respond to comments like this anymore, because it spikes my anxiety. Is why I stopped blogging as much, or as infrequently as I do (fiction stories not withstanding). In either case, I hope I approached it with all due tact for you. I take you to be a decent person, who meant no ill, who is reasonable and competent. I say this, because I’d rather not have a comment war that spikes my anxiety. I haven’t slept yet because of one earlier, so yeah. If you’re willing to be respectful and considerate of my position, I’ll gladly engage with you and discuss the matter more though. If not, I’ll probably avoid responding any further. It’s not because I’m being rude, I just can’t help it. I stopped blogging for the mentioned health issues to begin with, as well as for other personal reasons.
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Also, to answer your sort of question… The reason us marginalized groups are always at each others’ throats, is because of internalized oppression. As well, the affect of polarizing issues, it can make any discussion on such topics anxiety inducing. Which is why I don’t use Twitter or Tumblr, and why I avoid inflammatory content, unless I feel it’s… Really… Really worth the side affects (which is almost never). Honestly, I’d have a continuous concussion from all the face-palming that would happen if I used those sites, (not to mention the panic attacks watching the diatribes unfold). Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for all of us fighting against extremist behavior, and working to prevent trolls and extremists from hijacking our discourse. However, on the internet, that’s a MASSIVE undertaking to go out there and correct folks all the time. We’re better off not giving them the credibility of a response.
I feel we do ourselves a great disservice to focus on the trolls, and hateful lawn gnomes of the internet. As much as I’d like to make a dent in that problem, all I can do is correct it when I see it with what limited resources I can, and make sure I’m not silent about it. In my experience, fixating on it is not a good way to go about it. I do that, and that’s about all I can do. I just advise against thinking of them as the “Voice of the Community”, or inadvertently stereotyping, it’s easier than you think. I wish there was another way, but doing much about it would be more than a full-time profession. If something is true, it’ll stand on it’s own, without repetition. And ultimately, we do better at defeating trolls by avoiding playing their games. No rational person in the trans community is “Demanding” inclusion, only pointing out that to be rationally consistent, that you have to.
That said, it’s easy to get lost in all the in-fighting and bickering in some places on the web, or folks who get so polarized be all the rhetoric and fighting that they don’t realize that what they’re doing is counter productive, and ethically questionable. I’ve wrote stuff a few times about how the internet on it’s own will always suffer as a means for social change, because everyone has equal right to speak and it’s hard to moderate it without stuff slipping through. I’d also have to say it’s why I feel until we make laws against hate speech, this will continue to be as bad of an issue as it is at times. AKA Recognizing that behavior and speech that causes harm is not to be afforded equal protection of the law. Which is funny, because we already do in some cases, but then not others. So yeah. Take care, and have a good day.